Do Women Leaders Need to Play Office Politics to Succeed?

Do Women Leaders Need to Play Office Politics to Succeed?

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Are office politics stressing you out? In episode 18 of the C-Suite Chicks podcast, Ashlie and Whitney, hosts of the C-Suite Chicks, tackle the complex world of workplace dynamics, especially for women in leadership roles. They share personal stories of growth, grit, and resilience as they navigate office politics and power dynamics, both in traditional offices and remote settings. From handling challenging team members to maintaining professional integrity, they reveal how they've learned to manage relationships while staying grounded in their values.

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The episode kicks off with a question many of us have probably asked ourselves: would we be friends if we met in different circumstances, like high school or college? This light-hearted discussion sets the stage for a deeper dive into their professional journey. Both women candidly share how their paths, personalities, and experiences have prepared them for the complex interpersonal challenges that arise in any workplace. They compare how traditional in-office politics differ from remote settings, where the lack of face-to-face interaction can sometimes lead to misunderstandings and even cyberbullying. Yet, their resilience shines through as they discuss finding creative ways to overcome these challenges.

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In addition to handling difficult personalities, Whitney and Ashlie emphasize the importance of documentation as a protective measure. By consistently recording interactions and decisions, they create a transparent trail that reinforces accountability. Ashlie's corporate experience and Whitney’s psychology background prove invaluable as they analyze the motivations and mindsets behind challenging behaviors in the workplace. They reflect on how these experiences have honed their emotional intelligence—a skill that has been essential as they’ve climbed the professional ladder. With self-awareness and intentional communication, they’ve managed to handle even the most intense workplace scenarios with grace.

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Another highlight of the episode is their discussion about gender dynamics, especially the unique pressures women face in male-dominated spaces. Whitney shares her experience managing male subordinates and supervisors, describing the fine line between being assertive and being perceived as overstepping. The duo offers valuable advice for women in similar situations, stressing the importance of emotional stability, setting clear boundaries, and "showing, not telling" their capabilities. Ashlie encourages listeners to stay true to their values, urging them to focus on what they can control and ignore the distractions.

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Episode 18 of the C-Suite Chicks podcast is a must-listen for anyone navigating office politics or trying to improve their emotional intelligence. Ashlie and Whitney’s practical tips—like keeping thorough documentation, using emotional intelligence, and setting boundaries—are relatable and applicable, especially in today’s often remote work environments. Through their candid storytelling and actionable advice, listeners are reminded that with the right strategies, it’s possible to lead confidently, support each other, and create a professional environment grounded in respect and integrity.

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Ashlie Marshall (00:00):

Understanding that there are areas of gray, but in these instances when people are being lied about, mistreated, feel uncomfortable in other people's presence. The only way that I could manage that remotely was by making sure I was doing what was right, which are my values. Is this right? Is this the next best thing to do? Is this the best way to respond to this? Am I holding everybody accountable? Those types of situations? What do I have the authority to do? Hey y'all.

Whitney Ramirez (00:42):

Hello.

Ashlie Marshall (00:43):

It's the C-Suite Chicks for you.

Whitney Ramirez (00:46):

Do you think if we never met each other through work, would we be friends or would we have been friends in high school? That's a good question too. Or college. Would Whitney in college be friends with Whitney and Ashley Or with Ashley in college?

Ashlie Marshall (01:02):

Well, if we were in the same age bracket and we're at school together, not And we would not have been. That is a different story. Yeah. Maybe I was not the kind of, I think we

Whitney Ramirez (01:18):

Still were in

Ashlie Marshall (01:19):

Different groups. Yeah, I feel like you would've been with the more, well, you tell me. I feel like you would've been with the more quiet, reserved, got their stuff done. And while I was quiet, I definitely, I don't think that I hung out with the quiet group. My closest friend was a softball

Whitney Ramirez (01:42):

Player. You're not quiet though.

Ashlie Marshall (01:44):

I'm not quiet. But I mean, I was like a leave me alone kind of person. I didn't want to have all the friends. I wanted my little group of

Whitney Ramirez (01:51):

Friends. So Ashley was the popular girl.

Ashlie Marshall (01:54):

Everybody knew who I was because I was a cheerleader, but I was not like the Hey y'all I'll up in everybody's business and need to know everybody's stuff. That was not me. I was like, don't talk

Whitney Ramirez (02:04):

To me. And I was like, I was super quiet and I still am, but I don't really see myself as a quiet person anymore compared to when I was a kid. When I was a kid. I was so, so quiet and shy and I cared a lot about my grades and I really loved school. So I was the quiet smart girl that hated school, stole their homework from 10 minutes. People stole your homework. Yes, five minutes before class. People would get there early so they could take my homework from me and copy my answers.

Ashlie Marshall (02:39):

Oh my gosh. Well, I wasn't the kid. I wasn't that

Whitney Ramirez (02:41):

Kid. And I feel like I helped so many people graduate.

Ashlie Marshall (02:45):

Your why? So many people graduated.

Whitney Ramirez (02:47):

Yes. I can think of names right now of boys that I helped to

Ashlie Marshall (02:53):

Graduate. Do you remember some times where they ended up?

Whitney Ramirez (02:55):

Oh, I know where they ended up. I see them on Facebook. They didn't end up in a great spot

Ashlie Marshall (03:05):

In a new place today because my internet's not working. So please excuse my brisk white background and my makeshift microphone.

Whitney Ramirez (03:13):

So it looks like a dental office.

Ashlie Marshall (03:15):

Hey, it's got air conditioner and internet. We're working. Yeah,

(03:23):

We are talking about a very interesting topic and kind of what we were just going on about her personality and my personality and would we be friends? As we've mentioned before, Whitney and I work remotely, so we're not in the same location. We do work together every single day, but we don't work in the same space. But we kind of wanted to go over navigating office politics and different power dynamics that go along with that. There's lots of different things that happen in an office setting. I haven't physically been in an office setting in quite some time, but I definitely have had many, many, many experiences of office politics and power dynamics. One thing that somebody was really curious about with us was how have we managed office politics while we were moving up in the rinks? So that's a very interesting story

Whitney Ramirez (04:21):

And what it looks like being in all different places and what does a virtual office look like.

Ashlie Marshall (04:29):

Exactly.

Whitney Ramirez (04:30):

And I could share a story from a friend too. I have a friend, and I won't name her, but she works for a remote digital marketing agency too. And she has bullies, like actual bullies at work. I

Ashlie Marshall (04:46):

Know the friend

Whitney Ramirez (04:48):

You do. Yes. You're kidding me. And I feel Yes, she does. She has actual middle-aged women bullying her daily. But

Ashlie Marshall (04:57):

That's a really big office setting.

Whitney Ramirez (04:59):

It is. It's a well-known agency, but yeah.

Ashlie Marshall (05:08):

And is she still remote at that support?

Whitney Ramirez (05:11):

I don't know.

Ashlie Marshall (05:11):

So she's got remote bullies?

Whitney Ramirez (05:14):

Yes. Oh, yo man, people that gang up on her in a different department based on the work she's doing. And she does her job. She's not slacker whatsoever.

Ashlie Marshall (05:28):

Well, we know that.

Whitney Ramirez (05:29):

Yeah,

Ashlie Marshall (05:30):

We

Whitney Ramirez (05:30):

Absolutely know and they have to know that. But they have been there forever. And she's a newer girl, even though newer, meaning a few years in, she's still one of the newer people, but she's younger.

Ashlie Marshall (05:42):

That's the biggest problem right there. Let's talk about that for a second. Well, that's a lot to unpack there, but office politics in a remote setting like hers and ours is also very than an in-office politics. When you're in the physical location,

Whitney Ramirez (06:02):

People aren't as confrontational in person. I feel like those women wouldn't be so rude to her up to her face compared to what they do behind a screen.

Ashlie Marshall (06:16):

So is it via email or via Zoom? Yeah, both.

(06:21):

See, I don't know. I don't know. My experience with office politics in office, I had two, well, four different in-office jobs. One was very large corporate company, and I worked in the corporate office with satellite offices all over the Gulf Coast that I traveled to. And my experience in the corporate office was very different than my experience in the satellite offices. And then I worked for a smaller privately owned company. It was still a big company, but it was smaller, privately owned that had completely different office politics. And then when I stepped into tier level and our remote a setting, there was also a completely different set of office politics and there was bullying also. However, in our experience, I'm pretty certain the bullying that we experienced, we would experience in person as well

Whitney Ramirez (07:23):

Because

Ashlie Marshall (07:24):

We had an office setting for a while. And you experienced that. So having been the question, how did we manage it as we were moving up in the ranks, by the time we got into a position where we were moving up in the ranks, Whitney and I recognized that we were doing something bigger than ourselves. We were working hard to create a culture that we hadn't had before. Once we realized that that was what we were doing and we were going to be in it, and Whitney had convinced me to come out of the shadows and help her more, I was helping, but I didn't want to take a management role. Once we got to a point where we didn't really have a choice, it was going to be sink or swim, we navigated that very different than most people would. I believe Whitney leaned heavily on her psychology degree, and I leaned heavily into my professional experience of document everything. And by everything I mean if you have a phone conversation, you follow it up with an email and say, just to go over what we discussed in our phone call today, on this date at this time, via our cell phones, we discussed and go down the line. And the outcome of that call is and blurted out exactly what was said. This was before the time of phone recording, call recording, and the little note takers that we have record everything we say now, which are a godsend.

(08:59):

And they make meeting follow up so amazing. Well meeting follow up. So amazing and documentation much easier. It doesn't take you an hour to follow up for a phone call.

Whitney Ramirez (09:09):

No.

Ashlie Marshall (09:10):

So Whitney leaned into her psychology degree and learning personalities.

Whitney Ramirez (09:17):

Why do people act like this? There's even a book called Why does he act like that? Which my therapist recommended to me after, well, it's more so about personal relationships, but it's still speaks on, everyone has different attachment styles and communication styles. And also mental health is huge now in terms of people know, we know why people act specific ways and do certain things, and it's not normal sometimes how people act. And there's a reason kind of for why people do everything. But a lot of it, when it is an kind of intense situation can come back to mental health, not just office politics,

Ashlie Marshall (10:16):

Which is interesting.

Whitney Ramirez (10:16):

Which was interesting to be in it.

Ashlie Marshall (10:18):

Yes. Because you having gone down that road, I don't say it collided with how I handle things. We kind of found a way to merge our two strategies together very unintentionally I guess you could say.

Whitney Ramirez (10:33):

But

Ashlie Marshall (10:34):

I, coming from more corporate and business school and understanding how things should actually function and run, I was very like, no, this is wrong. It shouldn't go this way. It needs to go this way and this is how we document it and this is how we handle that. And it shouldn't do this. But at the time, we didn't really have, I'll use the word control, but that's part of the struggle. And the next step of that is what are the power dynamics? What power

Whitney Ramirez (11:06):

Dynamics in a small company too. Power dynamics in a small company is so much different than power dynamics in a very big company.

Ashlie Marshall (11:14):

Absolutely true. The power dynamics that we have experienced, I'm not even sure what, I'm sure there is a title for it, but the individuals that we have experienced that definitely had, I don't want to lose power of the situation. I want control of everything. It was definitely, there was manipulation happening. There was, well, I can't do my job because they're not doing theirs. And a big piece to that was

Whitney Ramirez (11:49):

Blame shifting.

Ashlie Marshall (11:50):

Blame shifting. And it worked for a while because we are women and it was basically the women against the men and the men saying, well, they don't know what the hell they're doing and they can't hold onto this, so I can't do this because they're not doing that. Yeah. There was a lot of that.

Whitney Ramirez (12:13):

It worked. What's crazy though that I just saw yesterday is sometimes it feels like being a dead horse, that it's like, this is frustrating because I can see how we're getting treated differently. But then I saw some statistics and I saw one pop up on my for you page yesterday, and it said, women have only been able to initiate divorce for 55 years, for 55 years only. Have you been able to decide you don't want to be married to who you married. And that's crazy. That's not that far. We've only been able to vote for a hundred years,

Ashlie Marshall (12:56):

55 years. We are in 2024. So you're talking in the seventies.

Whitney Ramirez (13:01):

Yeah, the seventies. My grandma wouldn't have even been looking back. Now, my grandma wouldn't even been able to divorce my grandpa, even though he was kind of a piece of shit.

Ashlie Marshall (13:16):

She wouldn't

Whitney Ramirez (13:16):

Have been allowed.

Ashlie Marshall (13:17):

That's so crazy to me. And that's just in personal relationships, that's not when it comes to business, right?

Whitney Ramirez (13:23):

Yeah. Well, I mean, we couldn't even work for, I don't know. We're new to the workplace too, in a way. We are. Well, we

Ashlie Marshall (13:32):

Worked, that changed during times of war because they needed women to run the mills and they needed women to produce the weapons at the men needed at war. But how did we encounter those power dynamics and work through them without compromising our own personal values? Because it's really hard, especially I think, yeah, especially being women are more emotionally responsive. We respond more emotionally. And that was something I had to work on big time because ever since I was a little girl, I can remember times where I would respond emotionally when I felt like somebody was being mistreated or somebody wasn't being kind or something wasn't fair. That's not fair. You don't even know the whole truth. And that's why I play devil's advocate all the time, but for me, it was really hard and I know how I navigated it, but how to do I think and manage your values, maintain your

Whitney Ramirez (14:44):

Values. I think the best thing that I did was that I was just very careful in what I communicated to who I always try to communicate more about myself and my work than what anyone else was doing. And I also tried to limit what I shared from my personal life. And I think I just really tried to protect myself. And then I think I ended up protecting other people by doing that because there were times where it was like I was told something in hopes that I would spread it, and I didn't do that. I kept to myself, and that was the only way that I could create some stability.

Ashlie Marshall (15:32):

Yeah. Well, in doing that though, you also, with the unstable people involved, you did create trust, which is really hard to do with unstable individuals, I don't think, because we were in different locations and you were more face present with the actual power dynamics happening and the manipulation happening. I was involved in a different way. I was more talked about than talked to.

(16:08):

And every interaction that I had where my knowledge or my experience or my expertise was put into question, I responded in very professional manner via email. And I was not shy about calling out untruths and not factual statements and responding in a very factual manner to those via email. And the only reason why I was able to do it so well was because I was doing it via email because I would have a chance to read the email and then reread it again. And before times of AI where I could say, take the emotion out of this email, I had to physically go in and take the emotion out of the email. And that was how I navigated it. It was literally making sure that I was true to what was right and wrong. Understanding that there are areas of gray, but in these instances when people are being lied about, mistreated, feel uncomfortable in other people's presence, the only way that I could manage that remotely was by making sure I was doing what was right, which are my values. Is this right? Is this the next best thing to do? Is this the best way to respond to this? Am I holding everybody accountable? Those types of situations? What do I have the authority to do? Stay within my confines and my authority while also trying to encourage the people who are being affected by this in the best way that I possibly could given what I knew about the situation. So navigating power dynamics is

Whitney Ramirez (17:46):

Hard. We learned so well to manage our own emotions. And I think that attributes a lot to us being strong leaders and so calm in a very calm and chaotic situations. And because that's where we actually work best in, because that's what we learned in.

Ashlie Marshall (18:17):

Yeah, a hundred percent. Another part of this is during the last four or five years, there have been situations where we were moving into places of authority and gaining more control. I can't think of a positive word to use in place of control. To me, control is very, say

Whitney Ramirez (18:41):

Responsibility.

Ashlie Marshall (18:42):

Yeah, responsibility. Having more authority.

Whitney Ramirez (18:44):

It's our duty

Ashlie Marshall (18:47):

Decision making, not being pulled into question. But over the course of the few years where we were working on that into those roles, we did have a lot of opportunity where our authority was challenged in a way directly and indirectly. We were talked about. And it was in male dominated environments.

Whitney Ramirez (19:13):

Well, it was interesting because we had men under us and then men above us.

Ashlie Marshall (19:18):

Yeah, we did.

Whitney Ramirez (19:19):

And that was so the men under us would go to the men above us and say, Hey, and that worked for them.

Ashlie Marshall (19:27):

Yeah. I forgot all about that.

Whitney Ramirez (19:29):

Not all of them, of course, but oh, I did not forget that because I was absolutely furious when that happened. And it happened multiple times with multiple people. It did.

Ashlie Marshall (19:45):

It really, really did. And how did you handle that when you noticed it happening?

Whitney Ramirez (19:52):

Oh, I documented it. I wrote someone up for it, and I started eliminating them from, well, I basically took away some of their freedoms and their input. If you are not going to respect the work I'm doing, I'm not going to allow you to have input in the work you're doing.

Ashlie Marshall (20:18):

That's right.

Whitney Ramirez (20:19):

And I'm also going to let you know how things actually should work, just so you don't forget. It's a warning, but at that point, you have to kind of stand your ground and show them why you're in the position that you're in.

Ashlie Marshall (20:37):

Yeah. Now that you brought that situation, I mean, I remember those situations now. I was not remembering them, and I remember how pissed I was, and I

Whitney Ramirez (20:49):

Remember, yeah, you were like, that's wrong. And I was like, okay. I thought that was wrong. I had a weird feeling about it. You

Ashlie Marshall (20:54):

Shouldn't have done that. And then all the curse words fly. Yeah. You guys don't hear Ashley's foul mouth, but I have a foul mouth. My children ask me all the time to do a better job, and they're eight and five, so that should tell you something. Squirrel. Okay. So I do recall when that happened, and you and I did have, I think around that time, you and I were just starting to, I had picked up on that situation, and that was when I had reached out to you and I was like, yo, what is going on? And that was when you started to really tell me stuff that was happening because you were there And I was here.

Whitney Ramirez (21:37):

Yeah. I was getting played left and, and I didn't have a choice. It's like I knew I was, but I was kind of being ganged up on it, it felt like.

Ashlie Marshall (21:49):

Yeah. And I don't think you would've come to me if I would not have come to you and been like, tell me what's going on. We need to fix this.

Whitney Ramirez (21:56):

Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, I was private. I have always been so private. I still am. But when people ask me straight up, I'll be honest,

Ashlie Marshall (22:11):

And maybe I guess I just asked the right questions, but I was like, what is he doing? Why does he sound like X, Y, Z? And then you were like, oh my God, you just blah. And it all came out. And I was like, no, we cannot do this. We are not. This is not, I'm here. I'm helping you now. I promise I'm here. I was like, oh my God,

Whitney Ramirez (22:32):

Man.

Ashlie Marshall (22:32):

So we supported each other. That was a way that we navigated the authority and ideas being challenged by this male. It wasn't a male dominated environment, but it was definitely the male presences, the

Whitney Ramirez (22:46):

Presence

Ashlie Marshall (22:47):

That was there, that was male, were the ones that were challenging decisions. They were challenging ideas, and they were, whether the intention was to do so or not, I can't speak on that, but that's what they were doing. And I stepped up and started talking to Whitney, and then we started to lean on each other for support. And that was really how we ended up handling things the way we handled them.

Whitney Ramirez (23:16):

And

Ashlie Marshall (23:17):

A big part of that you mentioned before, was our emotional stability. We had to learn very quickly how to take it in an emotionally stable process and then be intelligent about the way that we were responding and having that ability to grow emotional intelligence and manage these relationships, our colleagues and those that were trying to either make themselves look good or make us look bad, managing that in a very level playing field to where there was no emotion, that it took a

Whitney Ramirez (24:00):

Lot. It did, but it helped us become more confident in leading. And it gave us a lot of practice at a younger age. And I feel like it helped so much. I mean, it was a lot of pressure, of course, because you do have to kind of overcompensate for people who are unable to control their emotions. And so you're always performing at 120% while others are performing at 60, 70. And so it feels like you're going, going, going, and then you burn out, and then you melt down, and then it's like, oh my gosh, this is so frustrating. And you let yourself be frustrated for a little bit, and then you go right back into it. Just continuing to be a high performer.

Ashlie Marshall (24:51):

The thing that helped me the most, one, it was us, our support of each other, leaning into each other, giving you the base to rant, giving me this base to rant, knowing that we were not going to respond that way, but it helped us to gain clarity, release the emotion, have the conversation, scream it out, and then come back to the situation with a clear head and the emotional intelligence that we needed to move forward with a response or with a plan or anything that we were confronted with. And for me, the one thing that definitely helped me was most people know it as the serenity, serenity prayer. But understanding that there is a handful of things that I can control. And outside of those things, I should not spend my energy, my brain power, my emotions on them, because if I do, it's for nothing.

Whitney Ramirez (25:56):

Yeah, exactly.

Ashlie Marshall (25:57):

Focus my energy efforts, emotions on the things that I can control, the things that are out of my control let go.

Whitney Ramirez (26:05):

Yeah.

Ashlie Marshall (26:06):

Other people's behaviors, let them go.

Whitney Ramirez (26:10):

And they're not your responsibility either.

Ashlie Marshall (26:13):

That's right.

Whitney Ramirez (26:14):

But you do learn to manage your emotions better as you work through life, and it'll make you a stronger leader and it'll expose you to hard situations. But how we navigate through things now compared to what it was like five years ago, is so different. And it's so much more peaceful. It's not as anxiety ridden. It doesn't feel like, oh my God, what's going to happen next? It's like we know what's going to happen next. We are making decisions and actively planning and working on it every day, so we know.

Ashlie Marshall (26:54):

Yeah, yeah. It's true. It's true. Yeah, it's been a wild ride. I'll say that for sure. I, what's some advice outside of all the things that we've talked about, how we've navigated office politics and worked through how we strengthened our emotional intelligence through practice dealing with power dynamics and male forces that just definitely did not see us as knowledgeable, experienced, capable. We've been through those situations and scenarios. What is the best piece of advice that you would have to give somebody who's experiencing a situation where they are recognizing that A, they're in an office that is heavily relying on the politics of the office, that there's some power struggles happening, and on top of that, they have a female voice in a room full of male voices. What's your best piece of advice for her?

Whitney Ramirez (28:05):

One piece of advice. Get a really great therapist. Another piece of advice is show don't tell. Literally just prove them wrong. Show them that you can do it. Because I don't know, you can talk all the talk, whatever, what a lot of men do, but they'll talk and it's just kind of a waste of breath. Just show them that you're capable. I think its you get yourself frustrated the more you're frustrated about it. Of course, if you dwell on it, it's not going to do anything positive for you. But I'd say use all the energy that you want in terms of frustration and put it into just showing them that you belong there. You are there for a reason too.

Ashlie Marshall (29:00):

Yeah, that's really good. You are there for a reason. They hired you for a reason. I think for me, my best piece of advice is if decide where you're going to sit in that space. And by that I mean for me, growing up, my dad always used to say, don't stoop to their level. Right. Okay. I understand that. There's some power dynamics in here. Kid A over here wants Kid B's lunch and they don't want to fight. They're fighting over it, and I'm smarter than you, and I'm better than you, and I know what I'm doing, and you don't. And they get in this bicker, right? They start bickering and it happens right in front of you. And the best thing I can say is when fingers start getting pointed towards you, what Whitney said as far as show them, do your work. Do your work to the best of your ability. When you make a mistake, own up to it and bring solutions to the table. And don't move into a space where you are responding to things the way they are responding to things. And check your emotion. Focus on the things that you can control. Focus on the things that you have the power to learn, grow, do better, change and work on those things. Do your job to the best of your ability. Own up to your mistakes and decide where morally you're going to sit on that ruler and stay in that place and hold your ground and don't let anyone or any situation make you change your moral ground that you stand on.

(30:46):

So that would be my advice.

Whitney Ramirez (30:49):

I think that's great advice.

Ashlie Marshall (30:59):

All right. If you liked hearing us go back and forth about power struggles and office politics, please leave us a review and share us with your friends. And as always, we hope that you have a fabulous day. Thank you. Bye. Bye.

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